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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:25:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence?
Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM and simply appoint 2 of your mates who weren't capable of getting elected through the popular vote to make decisions you'd approve of? I can see why you like the idea Rule but got to admit it doesn't exactly ring of democratic institutions in the virtual gaming arena.
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It's a waste of time because the CSM has no real power.
It's a waste of time because regardless, players should never have the ability to decide on how it's developed.
So its a "waste of time" because it has no real power but you don't think it should anyway?
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It's a waste of time because there's a big pile of heavily biased people as representatives.
And its a "waste of time" because people with opinions got elected?
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It's a waste of time because the chairman is overzealous, which has been proven.
And its a "waste of time" because the chair actually cares about it?
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It's a waste of time because the CSM is a hollow shadow of what it was originally intended to be, after the recent unpleasentness.
And its a "waste of time" because its actually about players having an input into all eve issues rather than just the corruption oversight role (which it has anyway).
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It's a waste of time because more than anything people are whinging about nerfing and boosting ships rather than actual game issues.
And its a "waste of time" because players (like you Verone and you Rule and you Rells) are whinging about nerfing and boosting rather than talking about visionary game issues?
Good heavens what a bunch of self-indulgent claptrap. You Verone are the "waste of time" in this thread. You've been nothing but a cynical naysayer on all things CSM since you dropped out of the election.
Threads like this are "the waste of time" (in the op) and its just a bunch of hasbeens venting their spleen because they don't have the confidence to actually propose assembly hall issues and engage with the player base while arguing their points.
Rule, Verone, Rells. When I see a decent assembly hall issue from any of you I'll revise my opinion.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:32:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/08/2008 14:33:28
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Vaal Erit
For example, has any CSM member brought ideas to different forums/websites and ask opinions of many players in game? No, CSM members instead put in the least amount of effort and simply post on Assembly Hall and ask their friends ingame and think that is enough research into an issue.
Really? Realllly?
Things you aren't aware of must not happen, right?
Don't bring logic into this argument please - he had me convinced all my chatsubo/scrapheap/uk/blog/directevemail/etc/etc/etc feedback/ideas whatnot were all just figments of my imagination because I really trust the ramblings of annoyed internet posters scrambling to agree with a bored veteran whine thread.
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Also, it's a pretty sad day when I agree with a Jade post.
lol, you know something smells in the op when I'm putting the boot in alongside the goons 
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: TimGascoigne
... thanks to CSM and forums this will be another game of sitting still hoping your tank will outlast theres
Seriously, don't blame the CSM for the nano-nerf. That is down to a sustained campaign of forum-whining that began well before the CSM elections and we haven't escalated a single issue addressing these whines thank you very much!
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: NeoTheo
i think they are failing slightly on the "communicating front" and lots of posts come across over defensive.
I think its all about context really. If people engage in decent discussion I think you get to see the good side of the CSM; assembly hall has plenty of feedback from delegates in good debates. Jita park is updated regularly with meeting logs and agendas. The eve public is getting to hear about the issues we're advocating and what happens to the issues throughout that process. We've done plenty of communicating beyond the eve online forums - interviews with press and online sites, lots of us are engaged with the community on a number of levels on various third party sites.
But of course end of the day we're eve players too and all that "dark and dangerous" stuff that Rule is banging on about: We've been there, kicked in heads and got the tee-shirts to celebrate the virtual brutality and spaceships burning over our eve history. Hell, I've been shooting statist dogs, killing corps and alliances and generally raining death and destruction on ideological foes for 5 years now. I ran for election on a ticket of combat dynamism and enhanced carnage in warfare and skirmish in eve. Guys like verone, rule, rells? rank amateurs compared to some of the hardcore brutal red in tooth and claw players on the CSM.
So its not so much defensive sometimes as "wardec or stfu". If these guys want a pop at the CSM they only need to sign up next time round and run for election and show the eve public exactly what they think they can do. I'd have 100% more respect for that than for cynical naysayers that sit on the sidelines too nervous to get up and dance when the music changes.
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having said that, your[rells] above post is a disguised whine about nerfs, nothing more nothing less, you can't tag "btw i dont fly nano ships" on the end and think that makes the obvious vitrol *******s of your whine go away. tell you what, did the game work before polycarbs? ohh yes it did.
Well its obviously a disguised whine of sorts - but I guess its blaming the CSM for the nano-nerf when its pretty clear that as a council we haven't supported a single speed-nerfing topic and actually commended 30 alternative issues to CCP's attention ahead of speed being addressed in the first session.
Still end of the day remember we are Eve players after all rather than some kind of limp-wristed politically-correct nampy-pamby numpties with responsibilty to listen to pathetic whines. **** us off too much and we'll probably just wardec your corps and salve our hurt feelings with the skulls of your corp mates 
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:06:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Frug
Don't you get it jade?
You don't do anything, because you have 0 influence and are a farce, which is why you're responsible for the nano nerf.
Or something.
I'm working through it. Perhaps if I hit my head on my desk a few times I'll understand the reasoning.
Yeah, I wondered if that was the magic trick to realigning perceptions to see the world through Verone's eyes tbh
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Skrakron
i dont think you get it. How Can jade be resonponsable for the Nano Nerf. He is not a dev. What will it take for you noobs to get it. I would rather have 5year old players on the council than have people like you or the other whiners get a seat. Game will be dead within a year. Fanfest is going to be fun, conflicts here we come. hehe.
Word, I'm looking forward to fanfest. I love meeting internet tough guys face to face me
Serious point though, the CSM election process did separate the men from the boys (with apologies to Ank and Inanna) when it came to actually having the guts and persistence to stand for election and win a seat. Wannabes who didn't have the stones to actually throw their hat in the ring and still want to appoint their mates to the jobs without a popular vote frankly make me laugh with derision.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/08/2008 16:47:17
Originally by: Verone
Awesome CSM front there Jade, awesome. A player voicing his concern and stating his opinion is a waste of time? Oh, hang on... wasn't the CSM supposed to listen to everyone? I believe you've just failed at the first hurdle, yet again. As for dropping out of the election, it's the best descision I ever made in Eve.
Actually Verone in this thread you are behaving like a "whiner" not a player. I'm happy to listen to players. I really don't care about "whiners" in the least. Your post above is just a lot of hot air and nonsense.
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And you want me to waste my time putting together proposals on the Assembly Hall, only for them to be knocked back because they don't fit with your agenda?
I don't really care what you do Verone. I lost all respect for you a while ago.
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Get real mate, I'll start posting ideas when you start LEADING the CSM without bias and without being obnoxious and arrogant to everyone who has the gall to put negative opinions forward.
Sorry Verone, I didn't get elected to act like your fall guy and take nonsense from your emo cynicism. You want my respect again you'll have to earn it. But I've seen precisely nothing from you for a long time that isn't obnoxious and arrogant. Take a look in the mirror Verone.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
What exactly is this supposed to mean? Seriously? Are you in some way feeling that threatened by criticism that oblique references such as the above are going to make such criticism cease?
It means that I think you're probably a giant internet poseur who will shrivel up and hide in dark corners rather than come and share "your opinions" face to face in a bar Rule. :~
Basically I don't think you have the guts to do anything of moment. Whether that be standing for an internet election, having a face to face discussion, or anything else that means you have to get out from behind the keyboard and actually persuade somebody of the merit of your opinions.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Verone
... I get on very well with 99.9% of the people I speak to.
You really should talk to ex veto members more ... just saying.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:58:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Verone
To be honest, I'd walk away from a face to face discussion with you after about thirty seconds. Something tells me you'll do nothing but interrupt people, speak over people and generally try to force your words over the top of other people. I've got no time for people who aren't willing to listen to the opinions of others.
Funny how thats generally the feedback we get from ex-veto. Seriously Verone, you are embarrassing yourself now. Presenting yourself as some kind of a paragon of virtue in an internet debate is laughable. You've clearly been bored and annoyed with Eve online for a while now and the cynical veteran syndrome is making you act poorly. I have no idea why you decided to pull out of the CSM elections but your bitterness over that affair is leaking into all your public discussions and its been noted by many people.
I have no need to defend myself to you of all people. I'd advise you to walk away while you still have a little dignity.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Verone
Sadly some people are shallow enough to resort to veiled personal attacks, it's just the way of the internets.
But not you eh Verone? All is fair when you are on the offensive but somebody dares to suggest you might be a little more introspective and suddenly you cry "no fair" and "personal attack." Review your posting in this thread perhaps? End of the day I've simply said that your high-opinion of yourself is not really justified by the opinions of other players in this game. You made it personal Verone, don't cry about it if you end up getting a bit of criticism in return. I imagine there are players that enjoy your "dictatorial style" there are others that don't. You (like everyone on this planet) are liked by some, and others you rub up the wrong way. You are not different or special and passing yourself off as some kind of paragon of righteous while engaging in an internet flame war won't win you any particular credibility.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Verone
Losing calm now Jade, starting to get annoyed ...
I suggest you go make a nice cup of tea and then maybe go for a walk in the summer evening.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Thats some fine selective quoting there... he meant you and you know it.
Comes a time you stop talking to the bum you meet on the subway train, smile and get off at the next station you know. I failed a couple of anti-troll rolls but hey, nobody is perfect.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 00:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
I do remember most people involved stating that going to Iceland ended up being a pretty good success.
It was, but notice it ain't really the CSM people fighting these threads anymore. Its more the hecklers in the grandstands hurling abuse and getting flustered when the standup routine embarrasses them horribly in front of the girlfriend. Still, better on general forum than cluttering up the Assembly Hall and who knows, some of these people might stand for election next time around and show us how to do it.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 03:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: BobMoo22
You last posted in this thread less than 12 hours ago... I'm ashamed that I voted for you. 
If I had a million isk for everyone who claimed they voted for me but are now "extremely disappointed" etc I'd have a tidy income stream. But ironically the people making this claim are rarely ever the people who have taken an interest with assembly hall issues or csm meetings or even the feedback from ccp. Its almost as if they are just making it up to provide some sort of covering fire for their cynical mates who dislike the fact that the csm doesn't "represent them" despite failing to either a) stand or b) vote.
Bizarre.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
**EDIT**With regard to specific ship issues-If CCP desired intelligent player input towards balancing why not form a private consultation group of experienced and proven combat pilots (heck..chuck Chribba in there as well for the non-pew side) and solicit the opinions of them? Who would have a problem with Rells, Verone, Eddz, the dude with the glasses, Calmdown--basically the tourney commentating team with a couple of smart additions--in that sort of a non-public role?
So basically you are for having the CSM election results declared void and having the CSM replaced by a group of your mates to become the unseen eve balancing Illuminati running things from behind the scenes? Are people supposed to vote for this or you just want to forget all that voting stuff and have your decision hold sway over everyone Rule?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sergio Ling
You're doing it again. You're assuming the worst, and using that assumption to paint someone who disagrees with you in a fetid light.
He has been pretty explicit in his belief that he'd rather see game balance issues handled by an unelected coterie of people he "respects" rather than by the choice of the eve public though. Spin it however you like Sergio - replacing the CSM with a group of players that happens to include your ex CEO is a bit rum.
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Mates? He's said so before, that's not the case. Verone, yes. He's never flown with Rells, and no-one likes Eddz enough to be caled a mate of his. Calmdown and the dude with the glasses (Where's Wally? No idea who this is). These aren't his mates, these are people who were picked for a reason, and came through with great game knowledge.
Picked by whom? Picked by Rule? Where do you guys get off suggesting that an elected council should be replaced by a bunch of political appointees chosen by RuleofBone? And lets face it - the only thing we've seen from these guys is that they are good at launching attacks ON other players who DID get elected. Just looks like jealous sour grapes to me.
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They're not people who got voted into an 'amazing' structure because of a faked democracy, or because they showed their ass on a campaign video. Or because they love to argue and use a block of sixteen paragraphs to do so.
So the election was faked somehow? Is that the story doing the rounds in Veto at the moment?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 14:50:12
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence? You know I'm right Cool.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Mr/Miss/Whatever Constantine...selective quoting and mis-reading/understanding my rather plain statements is doing you zero favors.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
And if that means draconian measures...well...I say long live the king!
Difficult to misquote you RuleofBone. You don't like the result of a democratic election and so wish to attack the process and replace the results with an unelected coterie of "experts" that you are happy to advise on the picking of. Pretty open and shut case.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence?
Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM ...
Uhm, if only 10% of the people are voting you can hardly talk about democratic elements.
It just means that 90% of Eve doesn't backup the CSM!!
So don't talk about any legitimation you have to talk for the players of Eve. Only a small clique voted for the CSM - for whatever reasons.
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It's a waste of time because there's a big pile of heavily biased people as representatives.
And its a "waste of time" because people with opinions got elected?
Yes, when people only think of their own benefits and if THEY would like it, yes, then it is a complete waste.
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It's a waste of time because the CSM is a hollow shadow of what it was originally intended to be, after the recent unpleasentness.
And its a "waste of time" because its actually about players having an input into all eve issues rather than just the corruption oversight role (which it has anyway).
I think the players on the game development forum posting countless numbers and suggestions have much more influence and impact on the development than any CSM, sorry to burst your bubble of being important.
So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 15:31:18
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Originally by: Jade Constantine
So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence? You know I'm right Cool.
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Deliberate misquoting again Jade. You are getting repetitive and boring now.
Nope looks fine to me. I realize you are trying to back peddle wildly now but what you said on this thread stands on the record and just unleashing the veto forum hordes to change the subject won't really cut it.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 19:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nevada Tan
Hey Jade, as you've just had your pet "Remake 0.0 in Star Fraction's image" proposal shot down by the CSM before CCP even got to take a look at it, this means you can quit now because you're clearly not going to get your way. Have you considered moving to Shadowbane or PotBS or something? Maybe you'll have better luck there.
I think I'll avoid commentating since the meeting is still going on. Might be the professional thing to do no?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 19:16:00 -
[22]
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 19:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nevada Tan
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think I'll avoid commentating since the meeting is still going on. Might be the professional thing to do no?
If the meeting was still going on, shouldn't you have been chairing it instead of defending your e-honor in this thread?
Read our earlier minutes and understand how rotating chair on introduced issues works. If you are interested in procedure rather than simply trolling of course.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 19:44:00 -
[24]
Outcome of todays meeting.
Full Chatlog of meeting 8 is here.
1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue
CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI.
2. Musical Instruments in Ambulation - Bane
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
3. Specific Proposal for 0.0 Sovereignty Revamp - Jade
CSM voted against escalating this proposal.
4. Remove Ship Maintenance Bay Restriction - Inanna
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
5. Covert Cyno Fields should ignore Cyno Jammers - Jade/Tusko
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
6. Turn Titans into Mobile Stations - Bane
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
7. Remote rep criminal flagging is broken - Jade
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
8. Autopilot Options in FW - Avoid enemy Sov - Inanna
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
9. Covert Jump bridge activation range (too short) - Jade
CSM voted to escalate this proposal.
10. Changing Carriers Combat Roles - Bane
Meeting adjourned before the vote because we slipped beneath the quorum with people needing to leave. Issue will be revoted on the next agenda.
11. Prime fiction for the 3rd bloodline (more needed) - Jade
Delayed till next meeting
12. MOTD for Fleet/Gang window - Jade
Delayed till next meeting
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 20:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 20:16:19
Originally by: Le Skunk
Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/08/2008 20:11:01
Originally by: Jade Constantine
1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue
CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI.
Your finished.
You dont support the most popular issues youve ever had.
Resign now and save face
SKUNK
EDIT: By this i mean the csm as a whole - not you personaly.
I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. Bad mistake collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 20:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. COP-OUT collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think.
I read the whole log. I fixed a small bit of your comment for you.
First thing you and I agree on for a long time 
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 20:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Leon 026
The excuse of "its not final, so we haven't tested it (or we dont even know its on SiSi), nor do we care" is quite appalling.
Its really quite embarrassing.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 20:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: isdisco3
2. its chair and members don't get into public ****ing contests with detractors. part of the job is to take insults without responding in kind. PR ftw!
That was always my weakness tbh. If it was written in the CSM docs "though shalt not tell a numpty thou art a numpty" I might not have run ...
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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